A great discussion here about the nature of personal salvation. Perriman has articulated quite well a concept that I’ve been unable to adequately put into words.
Am I sure that I am saved? I do not think that the Bible defines ‘Christianity’ fundamentally or centrally as a religion of salvation, and certainly not of the highly individualized personal salvation that is characteristic of modern evangelicalism; so I do not think that the question ‘Are you sure you are saved?’ really gets at the heart of the matter. I believe that the God who called Abraham has called me to be part of his own people, and that my inclusion in that people is a matter of grace and is a consequence of Christ’s death and vindication. It could not have happened without the victory over Israel’s sin, its alienation from God, the prospect of judgment, and the opposition of the powers that ruled over Israel, that – to my mind – is best captured in the story about the suffering Son of man who receives ‘dominion and glory and a kingdom’ from God. This is a narrative of salvation but it is worked out primarily at a corporate level and it is set within a larger narrative of the calling or election of a people to be a place of God’s dwelling in the world.
Telling Stories, Asking Questions, Learning Lessons
Great quote.
I, like you, have felt so similarly that I almost did not bother to read the quote -based on the title of the post. I have lost my interest in “personal salvation” and see the language as largely irrelevant to Creation and Redemption.
Thanks for sharing this, Wade. There is a sense in which I heartily agree. God’s work through the ages seems to be focused on building community. There is, however, one thing that has always kept me from responding to this question with an either or response. Since I?m writing on the fly I may not be able to articulate like I want to, but I?ll try.
We live in relationship with God in the called-out-community of Christ. But, the reason for the community?s existence is not exclusively for community. Example: If I am a sick individual, I am to call the community?s elders to anoint me with oil and pray for me. Take the corporate gathering as another example: When it is habitually forsaken, it can result in an individual be devoid of the necessary stimulus for being the loving and caring kingdom presence of God in the world.
There is, furthermore, the whole discussion of individual responsibility and accountability. Ananias and Sapphira were part of Chirst?s community. They lied to the leaders of this community, the Holy Spirit and the Apostles. They were individually responsible for these acts and thus held accountable.
There is also the thief on the cross, whose salvation experience was very much an individual thing. Also, there?s that Ethiopian eunuch who had gone to Jerusalem with one concept of the faith-community to which he belonged and returned home with an allegiance to the Messiah Jesus, who was not looked on very favorably by this very community. His decision to follow Jesus seems to be quite personal, almost like he was accepting Christ as his personal Savior.
I?m rambling here, I know. And, I?m certainly not trying to be cantankerous…just trying to get my mind around this idea.
I’m with Bill here on this one. I don’t believe it is an either or thing. It is failing to teach and commuicate half of the message that tends to be the problem atleast from my perspective. Remember Peter’s words on Pentecost was that God made this Jesus both Lord and Christ. We teach Jesus from the Christ perspective and rarely from the perspective of His Lordship. This distorts the message. The solution is not to demphasize the salvation (personal or community) but to fill in that which is lacking teaching on the Lordship of Jesus. Hope that made atleast some sens typing on the fly here.
Salvation stories feature all sorts of numbers in the New Testament: 3,000; 12; households; and … one. Yup, sometimes just one at a time. The Ethiopian in the chariot, for instance. Some dude named Saul of Tarsus. All of the converts become part of one body. It is all a part of God’s plan to redeem His people and unify them as His family. And it is personal – very personal. It goes right to the heart of every individual.
To me, the question “Am I sure that I am saved?” is too self-focused. Jesus saves whom He wills. You can’t force His hand. Don’t you trust Him? Shouldn’t your question be “Am I about His business?” or better yet, “How can He work through me today?”
I grew up hearing (and asking) the question “Am I sure that I am saved?” But I like Keith’s questions better. They get to the heart of the matter.
It’s definitely not an either/or, but the place we start the conversation matters. Individuals who are “saved” are caught up in a much larger story that is being told (the gospel). The primary aim or goal of the gospel is not to save individuals, but to bring about the restoration of all things. Certainly the individual is included in this, but not as the focal point. When we start the conversation with the “individual”, it makes it difficult to keep the larger story in mind.
If you read only the quote and didn’t go read the whole post, then you missed out on a bunch of other great thoughts. Go check it out.
Wade,
I confess to reading only the quote, but I agree with the point it makes. Maybe we should be asking “What is God up to, and how can I get in on it?” Perhaps then we can begin to work ourselves into the creation-new creation narrative, realizing then that we aren’t considering religious options, but diving into what it means to really be a human as always intended by God–and that’s a glorious, robust story of such drama and brilliance that it is best described as deeply and eternally satisfying. Jesus didn’t offer a religious option, and he certainly didn’t offer a privatized Jesus-experience. He preached the gospel of the kingdom, and told us to keep our eyes open, watching for it. That is, he told us to be ever looking for God’s power, His influence pouring into our world; and he’s emphatic about our getting on board with what God is doing (reversing the curse). I’ve been reading through Joshua lately and so an analogy jumps out at me. The Israelites were living in the middle of God’s restorative story. And Joshua will not let them forget it. He reminds them of what God was up to, starting with the record just before Abraham (24.2f), and concluding with where they were in the narrative; living in a land they hadn’t cultivated, in cities they hadn’t built, and eating grapes they hadn’t grown. God promised to bless Abraham, and Israel was reaping the grace of that blessing. But where were they to go from that point forward? God saved them by an act of grace. To ask an Israelite Are you sure you’re saved? would have drawn a blank gaze. Saved Israel had a vocation–to be a light for the world (Is. 42) to the glory of God so that the blind might get a bit of light on their map. Their part in the story was to move God’s restoration project forward through sincerity and faithfulness to the Lord. And it was a national agenda! They had not been shoved into the private closet by the Enlightenment bully. Faith and fact were not mutually exclusive, and so public faith–communal public faith–was the norm. It was only when their eschatology grew distorted, that their light was blown out. The God-glorifying agenda had become and ethnic agenda which could only glorify Israel. The question that concerned second temple Jews wasn’t salvation, but vindication. When the Lord came to restore creation, would they be vindicated? And so here we are in a similar story. The eschatos has been inaugurated by the resurrection of Jesus and we have essentially the same vocation as Israel. The difference, however, is that our helper isn’t the law but the dynamic energy of the Spirit centered in the cross of Christ with an eschatological emphasis. Twisting our vocation into a primarily private experience is as much a tragedy as Israel’s ethnic prejudices. We live in cities we didn’t build, but in the closet. We live on land we didn’t cultivate, but afraid to harvest. We walk through vineyards we didn’t plant, admiring the grapes, but afraid to taste them in abundance. We ask people if they’re saved, and by that we mean are you content to hide in the closet, ignore the land, and allow the grapes to rot on the vine while you wait to get your salvation after you die? Maybe one day we’ll push the basket from off our lamp! And maybe we who are saved need to ask ourselves the Israelite question: When the Lord returns, will we be vindicated? We need to find a piece of God’s kingdom and jump right into the eternal life now.
Ben Overby
SLAAAAAM! Good words Ben. Thanks for that.
Many blessings…
I liked Nick’s comment. Jesus as Christ is easy. Most would say they believe in Jesus in some way. Jesus as Lord. Now that is harder to swallow in today’s culture. I interpret salvation as God saving us from ourselves and calling us out to fellowship with him, in the flesh now, and in the spirit for eternity.