Here is a teaching I did on Sunday that unpacked Garnett’s Leadership Heritage Commitment, especially as it relates to leadership opportunities for women at Garnett. Coming in at just under 58 minutes, I guess you could say it’s kinda long 🙂
Attention Garnett readers/listeners: please leave your feedback in the comments below or email me at wadehodgesATgmail.com
Telling Stories, Asking Questions, Learning Lessons
You want feedback from folks outside of Garnet?
Sure, but just keep in mind how contextual these kinds of talks are. What I’m saying at Garnett may not be what would be good or appropriate to say somewhere else.
I think we are screwed up on many levels.
The role of women as deacon is very biblical. You discussed other roles that we can see in the new testament church. There are rolls in womens ministry that are and should aways be exclusively female. That being said, I think the role of pastor is clearly stated to be exclusively male. From the lists of qualifications given by Paul, pastors should be manly men not moody types with something to prove or spineless wimps who never ever upset the applecart.
Now remember that I am very concerned about how testosterone intolerant our churches have become. Men hate church in ever increasing numbers. I don’t blame those that do. I think that men and women alike get their creativity and zeal crushed by our current non offensive environment. This is God’s church not our little Oprah set.
Long and short of it all: I like your legacy rule excluding women from the presbytery and dislike your rule excluding women from the pulpit. Women belong in ministry. They are very good at it. Men need to cowboy up and provide some leadership. I think the real push to get women in leadership is because of the giant sucking sounds that are many of our presbyteries.
I think it’s interesting that it’s fairly normal for people to think things are clear, when they are nothing of the sort.
For instance, and I don’t mean to pick on the man in the Big White Hat.
I have no idea what BWH is referring to when he talks about womens ministry.
I don’t think the role of pastor is clearly stated to be exclusively male and the clarifier of manly men leaves me scratching my head wondering what BWH is talking about. It’s the kind of thing rednecks say, or arrogant pastors from seattle.
It’s a bit narrow to say that men hate church in increasing numbers because everyone hates church in increasing numbers. Everyone. Because church is increasingly irrelevant and concerning itself with testosterone intolerance, whether women should be in leadership and what kind of music we play. There’s plenty to hate.
As per the the talk this morning. Here are my thoughts.
1. I’m curious about the role of single shepherds after listening to your description of the role and necessity of wives to their husbands.
2. I think the challenge to push beyond emotional attachment is very helpful.
3. I thought the recognition of everyone in the room regardless of their position very helpful and Christlike.
4. I thought the recognition that women in leadership is a justice issue was right on the money. Which ironically makes it a kingdom issue for me.
5. It was interesting sitting behind a beautiful African American family in front of us this morning but it gave a unique feel to reading the slide that read: “Woman are free to:” on it. Freedom is a justice issue too isn’t it.
6. The giant sucking sounds isn’t our presbyteries, it’s something else that has little to do with being a manly man. He has to do with our inability to live in the real world while we instead substitute reality for a generic vanilla hermetically sealed version of life, which is really no life at all. All in the name of Jesus.
7. I can appreciate a more complimentarian view of women in leadership, but would push towards a more egalitarian view.
8. The irony of this whole thing is that it’s a bunch of men have the conversation. Create some space. Give women some authority to lead us toward a more healthy view. Otherwise it’s always going to be about power.
Just a few random thoughts.
one more thought.
I’m going to beat wade in fantasy football this season!
Hello Wade. I spent some time with you this morning on my walk. I appreciated what you had to say. I appreciate your courage and Garnett’s courage in following this path. I was unaware of the “as in all the churches” translation dilemma … don’t know where I’ve been … but that is an interesting point to make. I need to pick up a TNIV.
As for Big White Hat, that’s a great comment: This is God’s church not our little Oprah set. Zane has a way with words.
Thanks for sharing the message. It is a needed one.
i think it’s also important to say that you are doing a great job leading Garnett through change. You are good at honoring all the folks who think their version of this is right.
I also understand the need for this kind of conversation, I just wish we didn’t have to have it.
Hey riddle.
Maybe I should have said women’s crisis ministry. I mean do you think dudes should be over at a married woman’s house while her husband is out?
And I am a redneck. Thank you for noticing. When an okie calls someone a redneck, it reveals some things about his character. Winning at fantasy football won’t do it. You will have to find a better way to remasculate.
If you don’t see more and more men hating church, then we all need to come up to Tulsa to see what you’re doing right. I work with a bunch of dudes. About a third of them go to church. The rest would rather lose a tooth.
How can I make a audio cd copy of the lesson on “women-in-leadership” and spread it around our congregation here at Alvarado Church of Christ…? Great insight into a sticky subject ….. Hshoop111@sbcglobal.net
Every generation is accountable for “injustices” which are allowed to continue and are often sanctioned by religious institutions. My grandparents and parents (and me to some degree) are accountable for the way our country fell woefully short of the notion that”all men are created equal with certain inalienable rights.” “All men” meant “white men who owned property.”
It is easy for me to look back and ask older folks, “Where were you when Dr. King was doing his prophetic and ordained work? How could you have missed that opportunity to represent the liberating work of God’s kingdom?”
Each time I ask that question, I hear the voices of young children asking me “where were you during the discussion of women being treated as second class citizens and as inferior or unfit for public leadership in the church?”
By public leadership I mean serving as “pastor, minister” or playing the occasional role of preacher and teacher.
I always make it clear that the role of women in the church is far different than the discussion of acapella and/or instrumental worship–a topic of some interest in Churches of Christ.
Women’s role is a justice issue because it involves women. The case of “Instruments vs. acapella”, though important, is about style of worship, preference, exegesis and interpretation.
One is about drums, guitars, and forms—the other is about women who equally reflect the image of God.
I should also note that I do not believe that every church in every culture is called to allow for women in public leadership. Some churches would implode were they to alter their current position. Some cultures are still predominantly patriarchal (c.f. most Middle Eastern) and are not in a place to hear the liberating words of Jesus and Paul. At least not yet…
Our community of faith wrestled through this discussion for four years before coming the conclusion that a women could serve in any capacity save senior minister and elder. We have two women on our ministry staff and we have women who use their teaching gifts during our Sunday and Wednesday gatherings. They provide great insight and wisdom and have led us to greater depths of insight and reflection on the nature of faith.
Josh,
Man I was with you until your last paragraph. Help me understand how your church came to the conclusion that women can not serve as senior minister or elder?
I’m truly interested in hearing your thoughts.
Big Hat,
i’m not looking to “remasculate”, but thanks and I’m not interested in a micro surgical vasectomy (as advertized on the billboards).
Also. a point of clarification. I do see men hate the church, I’m just saying that women are haters too. I don’t think this is a gender issue. It’s an issue that most churches deal with issues that are completey irrelevant to the world outside their walls. I certainly appreciate the programs some of them might have for missions, but until the chruch lives and breathes for something other than itself it will always draw hatred from folks. And for good reason. Seriously. Who wants to go to church these days really?
It was worth a look back at the comments to see a post from Horace Hooper. It’s been too long since I corresponded with Hoop. Awesome.
Nice save riddle.
But admit it, you looked up remasculate in the urban dictionary when nobody was looking.
no dictionary.
here in oklahoma they taught me in elementary school to break a word down into parts and understand their meaning.
re – mascul- ate
Though I didn’t know there was such a thing as the urban dictionary… do you buy it at urban outfitters? 🙂
Wade-
Thanks for your courage in addressing this issue. I listened to the podcast because we were out of town this weekend. I have some specific questions that I’ll put in an email, but here a few of the highlights as I heard them:
• We approach this issue from different perspectives. We can disagree, but we must be tolerant of others in our Garnett family.
• Our leadership is not bound by tradition. They are trying to balance the pace of change with the need for unity.
• In examining our practice, we need to realize the difference between theological disagreement and emotional discomfort.
• This isn’t about who gets to do what in an assembly. That is not at the core of the gospel. Treating God’s children with equity, justice, respect and honor is at the core of the gospel. – Love that part!
On a side note – I’m a former church hater that now loves and needs my church community. I’ve found that when I’m a part of a church body that is openly flawed and struggling to find ways to be Jesus in the world, I can get past some of my own “church” issues. Garnett is messy and complicated, but it is also authentic. I love it. I feel at home. I am allowed and encouraged to think, question and grow. My experience within the walls challenges me to live life more intentionally for Jesus outside the building.
Riddle, I’m having as much fun as you are but we’re hijacking this thread. I have an email address for you. So I’ll use it.
There will always be those who hate attending the assemblies of the church. That will never change. Jesus was popular as long as He healed and provided bread but when He began to speak about true discipleship , they said it was too hard and left Him and even crucified our Lord. We are in a kingdom and must be about the work of the kingdom as the King commands. It is not ours to ask what the culture wants but to preach the kingdom within the culture. Some will respond , others will reject. God gives the increase as the citizens of the kingdom procalm the good news and live with prayer , worship , love and service.
I listened to the pod this morning. Great message! There were several points that I think you really hit home with. Unity is important, but not at the cost of distorting the message!
I see Garnett trying to go both ways and unfortunately, you will have to make a case one way or the other. Not everyone will agree and I think you clarified this when you mentioned emotional attachment. Too many of us believe our emotional attachement is our truth and we hold up that truth instead of Jesus!
I was really impressed with your teaching and how you used scripture in the truest sense. I believe this message was much easier to understand than Mike Cope’s lesson on the same topic. I appreciate what you had to say.
Fortunately for us, we are a few steps ahead of you in that we have merged a CofC and a Christian church and we have women who have prayed from the pulpit, read scripture but the interesting fact remains we have those who object to women passing the plates! Go figure! I really appreciate your words of wisdom in realizing there are those who will object, but we can all be in unity.
I like to use the illustration of unity is not thinking alike, but thinking together! Two people are unified when they walk side by side toward the same goal. God bless Garnett and thanks for sharing this message. I look forward to more messages and information concerning Garnett’s move on this.
I personally think it would be permissible (and beneficial) to have a woman senior minister and to have women shepherds in some of our local churches…BUT…for our church as this time, our elders decided otherwise (both in interpretation and application of NT teachings).
I should add that I am in the minority per our leadership team regarding a female senior minister and shepherd.
Wade,
Excellent lesson! I’m so glad that after 5 years at Garnett your authentic feelings about women’s roles/leadership were able to be expressed.
As we have wandered around town this summer at various locales, a high priority on our list of a future home church is that they will be a congregation that will nourish any talents my daughter has been blessed with that will lead her down a non-traditional ministry path (if that’s her choice of course)
I wish you had preached this a year ago before we had our young ladies of the youth ministry serve communion, or then again, maybe you could not have preached this now had our young ladies not already served communion and caused some discomfort.
Since women at Garnett have seemingly always been active in ministry, and leadership, I have to wander what else this particular sermon is laying a future path for? Maybe revitalizing a non-existent deacon program? How awesome would that be for you all! Maybe a female worship leader? Interesting 🙂
I love the Martha/Mary story and all it implies. It’s just a great story.
One tiny thing rubbed me a bit – My grandfather was an elder long after his wife died and still provided great counsel to many men and couples through premarital counseling. However, he stepped down as an elder after he fell in love again because now he though of himself as a husband of two wives?!?!? Crazy – I know.
Keep preaching like this and you may just find me in a pew again!
Be careful bro’!
God bless you Daniel!!
Regards ~ Robert
Jennifer,
I don’t know you but after reading your post above I want to meet you. I want to hear more of what you are thinking. I really really connected with it.
Wade, can you introduce Pam and I to Jennifer some Sunday?
Big White Hat, I got your email, we’ll talk there.
Wade, thank you so much for presenting this lesson and for including it on your blog, so that I could hear it. I liked your reference to “trajectory,” which makes me think that you have read “Slaves, Women and Homosexuals” by William Webb, an excellent work on this subject. The sooner we start viewing and treating our sisters in Christ as full partners, the better. I too look forward to hearing more about Garnett’s journey on this important subject.
Mark
Wade,
I must admit that I am surprised at the depth of your lesson on the future of women serving at Garnet. I applaud you on the depth, the wisdom, and the common sense I heard in the teaching. It is rare for a pulpit minister to go so boldly into this subject. I wish our present congregation of almost 850 members could hear this sermon! We have women who are very knowledgable and capable of high quality teaching, and who are not the least bit embarrased to lead a prayer for anyone or who would like to stand on the stage and give their personal story of coming to faith but they can’t because of the male only on the stage/pulpit theology.
My oldest daughter is a children’s minister in a 600 member Church of Christ. I think you probably have a good idea of what she has faced while earning a Masters Degree from ACU and finding a position in ministry. She has told me stories of her interviews and ministry life of how she has been treated by male “leaders” that honestly, as a father, tears my heart out that my daughter had to suffer such treatment. Some of them, quite honestly, made me want to become “physical with some men,” however, what is the worst part of it is that those stories make me embarrased to be a member of a church fellowship that treats women like we do. I won’t go into that but I have tried to get her to write about her experiences hoping it might help other women in their fight to be able to serve God through minitry or leadership. She has an absolutely wonderful job now in a congregation that appreciates her abilities and dedication but she had to “pay her dues” getting there.
I started studying gender issues when my daughter was a freshman in high school because of a comment made by a male minister at a retreat for high schoolers in small congregations in our multi county area. I completly changed my views on women after I started reading well written studies that put to shame the poorly written stuff that was commonly taught in our little conservative congregations areound Central Texas. When I set up my own web site, I put material, etc on my site related to gender and have received many comments from men and women who have visited my site over the years. I have also received some of the nastier side also but that is to be expected. I believe, after more than 15 years of studying this one subject, that women stand on equal ground in the church because of the Cross! Gal 3:26-29 pretty much says it all.
I ppreciate the fact that you used the TNIV for your reading. It is a wonderfull translation, but it has not correctly rendered some areas of translation as accuratelyas it should be. I would like to recommend reading a new NT translation by Dr. Ann Wyland called “The Source.” She has extensive footnotes and commentary on her Greek translation, not just a typical commentary. If you have not purchased one, please do so as I think you will find it an excellent source of information.
Again, thank you for taking the stand you did. It will be several generations of teaching and preaching of sermons similar to yours before women are recognized as being equal to men in God’s eyes in the church and we see them being used to their fullest potential. I believe, when that occurs, we will see unprecendented growth in the church and the church will become what it should have been centuries ago!
Grace to you and peace.
I enjoyed the podcast. And must confess that as a professional woman it is very difficult to reign in my natural abilities to lead and teach when I go to church. Sadly in my little town in rural Alabama we will be years getting to this point, basically I know it will not happen for me. But I hope that my granddaughters will have the opportunity if they want it, to lead without having to leave the Church of Christ heritage, but if they can not I would support their departure. Frankly I sometimes wonder if I will be able to weather it out myself.
Donna,
wow. thanks for that.
what part of Alabama?
Wade, I listened to the entire lesson. Even went back to hear certain parts a second time.
You’re a really fine communicator. Whether I agree or not, your presentation was excellent.
Toward the end, when (what are the right words?) the expansion of women’s roles was spoken of in terms of justice, I cringed, but not necessarily because I disagreed, which for now I do.
It made me uncomfortable because, if what you are talking about is so close to what Paul refers to as “the truth of the gospel,” then how can the approach of “let’s proceed at the right pace” be justified? Under those circumstances, shouldn’t it be more like, “We must obey God rather than men (and women)”, withstanding people to the face, and that sort of thing?
I have other questions, like, “How do we handle the emergence of a historical-and-cultural backgrounds approach that effectively makes us smarter than traditional understandings of the Bible?” Were, say, Tertullian and Augustine and Jerome, et al, so removed from places like ancient Ephesus, or Mary and Martha’s house, that they just didn’t get what was happening in those texts like we do? Maybe so. But you have to admit, at the very least, that it’s a strange turn of events.
Then again, I wouldn’t want to vouch for everything that they said or believed. This makes my head hurt.
Frank,
It seems that the issue of not running toward obedience might, in part, be due to the Lord’s great desire for his body to be unified. “The right pace” is still a pace toward obedience, yet not at a pace that destroys whatever unity that may exist within the congregation. To suddenly turn in obedience as a body may be counter-productive.
As for the issue of historical and cultural backgrounds and their effect on our understanding of the Bible, it’s a great question, one that I have had myself on other issues, but had failed to take into account in the thinking/writing of men like Tertullian, Augustine, etc.. I do think that it is possible that these men were removed from Ephesus, etc. and were coming out of a male-driven society and therefore may not have recognized what was happening in these texts. It’s impossible for me to say, because I don’t really know what these men had to say about the role of women in the Church.
As someone who isn’t a member of the Garnett congregation I don’t have a “chair at the table”, so to speak so my comments would probably and understandably not carry any weight. The fact that I’m a member of a non-institutional congregation probably would not endear me to anyone either.
After listening to brother Hodges I couldn’t help but think of two things: 1) ISTM, if I heard correctly, that the decision as to what will happen has already taken place, the issue has already been studied and the leadership will be there to answer questions, aliveate concerns, etc. If I have identified the process correctly it strikes me that there is a danger of “group-think”. It would take a brave soul to stand up and say “What a minute I believe you folks are wrong!”. I know because personally there have been times when it was easier for me to keep my mouth shut than to speak out my concerns.
2)While the talk was a good one, and kudos for stretching peoples’ attention spans by going over 30 minutes, I could not help but think that certain arguments from a “conservative” viewpoint were too easily dismissed. I am refering to what was discussed concerning I Corinthians chapters 11 and 14 and I Timothy chapter 3. I would hope that anyone who brough opposing viewpoints would not have their beliefs dismissed so easily.